Brad McNutt This is Four Preachers and a Podcast. And as you notice, there are three of us and one of us is missing and we have no idea what is going on today. But we are all here. All three of us are here together because. Dan Winkler Of the one that's at the helm. Brad McNutt You got that right. You have that right. So, of course, I'm Brad McNutt from Moulton, Alabama. Chance six from Charleston, South Carolina. How are you? Chance Hicks I'm great man. Glad to be here. Brad McNutt All right. Well, that makes one of us. One of us? That's correct. And then, of course, Dan Winkler from. You're in Nashville. Dan Winkler Spring Hill area. That is correct. All right. I'm glad to be here as well. Enjoyed our last episode together. And thank you all for inviting me to come back and kind of step in for Hiram. I'm so looking forward to Hiram getting back. He blesses my life, as do the rest of you. Three. Whenever you all speak to a matter through this particular podcast, it's a it's always a joy to study together. Brad McNutt It is. We're glad that you are with us to talk about. Another listener has asked another question, and it's a very good question. I mean, all of us have been in local ministry for mean chance, and we're pushing 16 years. I think maybe, uh, Dan is probably, you know, 50, 56. Yeah, that's mean to say. It's got to be quite a bit. And I'm sure I know that we have all wrestled with this question in our studies, and it is a question that we have seen other people wrestle with as well. And there are some strong feelings that come along with the question that we're going to address today. So basically, the listener asks this question about the phrase found in Matthew and Mark's gospel when Jesus says, from the cross, My God, my God, why have you forsaken me? And so the listener request is this I would like to hear y'all's take on this. Was it God the Father literally forsaking Jesus on the cross, or was it just that he felt forsaken? These seem to be the two views that are predominant. That is according to this listeners studies. And so we're dealing with this question. Okay. Now as we try and position it, there are I would say that the listener has a pretty good grasp on the predominant views that exist. Having summarized it in those two things. So let's, um, chance you want to read the text for us. Do you have the text in front of you? You can pull it up. Robert is not running things, so I don't have logos that will magically make it appear on the screen. So we're going to read the text and then we will spend some trying time trying to unpack what is going on and what Jesus is saying. Brad McNutt Yeah. Chance Hicks So I'll read it from Matthew's account. This is Matthew 27, 45 and 46. The parallels found in Mark 15 like 33 to 37. But Matthew's account says, now, from the sixth hour until the ninth hour, there was darkness over all the land. And about the ninth hour Jesus cried out with a loud voice, saying, Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani! That is my God, my God, why have you forsaken me? Yelled all of those pronunciations? Brad McNutt Yes, every bit of them. So as we're thinking about this context, okay, what is Brother Dan, you put this in context for us. What is he doing here? Dan Winkler Well, he's actually he's actually quoting Psalm 22, verse one. When you think about the seven sayings of Jesus from the cross, it's intriguing to see that three of the seven are a quotation of Scripture. And three of the seven are prayers. And when you look at these three that were prayers and these three that were quotations of Scripture, some of them network where he was actually praying Scripture. Just a beautiful, beautiful concept to think of our Lord doing that in the darkest moments of his life. But this particular passage is a quotation of Psalm 22, verse one, where actually the psalmist, if indeed he was David, the psalmist asks the question why twice? And implied the same question a third time. So Jesus is quoting from a passage where the psalmist was in a very dark moment of his life, as expressed in those words of Psalm 20 two's beginning. Brad McNutt That's correct. We need to pay close attention now. Brother Dan, you mentioned something. When? Before we started recording. A a Jewish concept of interpretation where he's citing verse one, but also he's. Kind of tapping us on the shoulder saying, but you should pay attention to the whole song, right? I'm trying to draw your attention here. So let's think then, because he is citing Psalm 22, let's think about Psalm 22. Let's focus our attention on Psalm 22 for a little while, and then we'll see what the Psalm is saying, and then we'll take a step back, and then we'll consider some other implications from all of Scripture concerning these interpretations. Chance Hicks So before we jump to Psalm 22. Brad McNutt Hey, you go. Chance Hicks Ahead. Yep. Staying here in Matthew 25, it's interesting that from the outset, when Jesus makes this statement from Calvary that there was misunderstanding of it in that moment, some of them were saying, hey, wait a minute, he's calling for Elijah. And so it's just interesting to me that they were wrestling with what it meant then. And here we are all of these years later, still in, in a, in a period of wrestling with, okay, just exactly what does Jesus mean when he's quoting Psalm 22? Brad McNutt So, absolutely. It's a good point. Yes. Very good. All right. Go to. Chance Hicks Psalm 22. You have my permission. Brad McNutt Thank you. All right. Well, let's hit Psalm 22 then. And as we look at this as it seems to be, as I said already, a Psalm of David and one that needs to be paid attention to in its fullness. So as we think about this context, uh. There are a lot of things that are going on. Okay. This is a moment in David's life. It's kind of one of those moments that you we kind of wish we knew exactly what was going on. But at the same time, that may take away some of the universal appeal of it as well, that maybe God wants us to see it as we've all been through similar situations. And here's a guidance through a similar situation. So what is going on in this particular context? There are plenty of moments in David's life that would fit the bill of him feeling forsaken and God rescuing him and being there for him. So. Let's think about the Psalm together. Who wants to jump in and take us all the way home? Chance Hicks Well, before. Before we jump into Psalm 22 again, here we go. Sorry, sorry. Let's let's quit. Sorry. Brad McNutt Can you take it? Dan Winkler We're never going to get there, are we? Brad McNutt I don't think so, but. Chance Hicks But the feeling that the psalmist expresses in the opening of Psalm 22, right, is a feeling that he expresses in other Psalms, too. So you find like Psalm ten and verse one, why do you stand far off, oh Lord, or some 13 and verse one, how long the Lord will you forget me forever? So he he's been in other circumstances of life that have brought these similar questions and similar feelings to the surface of his heart. That you're going to find here in Psalm 22. Dan Winkler I think that's one of the beautiful thoughts that come from the Psalms, whether it be David or whomever. These individuals would pray to God and they would express the deepest feelings as they as they prayed. And, you know, are you are you even there anymore? Okay. You have you forgotten me? Well, how long is this going to go on? It isn't. I feel that way sometimes, don't you? Chance Hicks Oh, absolutely. Dan Winkler And so read Scripture, and I see that some of the greatest men of Old Testament scripture felt that same way. And that thought alone lifts me up and knows makes me know. You know, I'm. I'm normal. Chance Hicks Yeah. And I think that's one of the things maybe that makes prayer difficult sometimes is the, the silence or the delay in response. Like, we're, we're a people who love instant gratification and instant things like instant oatmeal, instant grits, like the microwave makes your food instant. The drive through line is supposed to be instant. But then we turn to pouring out our petitions and our requests and our heart to God in prayer. And it's not an instant response you can't necessarily always put your finger on. Okay, there there is an instant answer, and God has responded to my request. And so it makes us. It makes us struggle sometimes with prayer. And we feel the same way. Where are you? Why? Why are you so far away? Dan Winkler Well, and too, we by experience are so formal, or we've been taught to be so formal in our prayers. The prayers we hear in corporate worship, some of the ways we are taught to pray. They're just this formality that goes with it. The psalmist, when they prayed, they got right down to how they actually felt. And that's what lifts me up to know that I can express myself to God and let him know how I feel. Of course, of course, with the greatest respect and reverence. But still he's willing to hear me struggle and wants to hear from me when I struggle. And that's what we see on the part of David throughout the Psalms. And Psalm 22 is one of the greatest examples of that for certain. Chance Hicks Yeah. Chance Hicks And as you look at this Psalm, I mean, really it divides into two major sections. You know, the first 21 verses or so is really David's cry for help as he's surveying the situation he's in and the and that maybe even divides into two sections where in the first 11 verses or so. If, as in this trouble, it's near, and he's asking God, don't be far from me. But then as you transition from 12 to 21, this trouble that's near seems to have even circled even closer. And now the terminology in this section is they've surrounded me. Verse 12, they've surrounded me. Verse 16. So it's not just near. Now I'm encircled by this trouble. And he he ends with that same cry again. Verse 19, do not be far from me. Right. And so the first half is this cry for help as he surveys the difficulty and as it encloses in. But then the second half of the psalm, it really transitions there in verse 21 where you have this phrase, you have answered me, and I don't know. I love the way my new King James is set up, and it just sets that phrase off by itself. And it really sets the transition of the psalm to go from this cry for help to this pouring out of praise and adoration to God for what he's done, but not just the one who has been helped, but he's inviting others to join in to that praise. And so he calls for those who are the descendants of Jacob, and then he will call down in verse 27, for those who are from the ends of the world, or the families of the nations, and even down in the end of the Psalm down in verse 31, to a people who who have not yet even been born, who will be able to join in with this praise because of the deliverance of God. Dan Winkler Well, I'm a guest, but could I ask a favor? Chance Hicks Sure. Dan Winkler Could we read the psalm and as we're reading it, break it down? I think if we were to do that, we could step back toward the at the end of having done so. And perhaps the the Lord's use of the psalm will begin to just shine for us. And we could answer the question that is offered and at the same time put our finger on the pulse of perhaps what Jesus was actually saying and feeling at the time. If it's okay, I would like to ask one of you guys to to read, and I'd like to insert a word at the beginning of your reading certain sections and just watch the Psalm unfold bits and pieces at a time. Would that be okay? Sure. Brad McNutt That sounds good. I'm back. I don't know why. Disappeared. Our our power at the at the building blinked. And so Robert was just gone. Dan Winkler We had one of the most intelligent conversations while you were gone. It was just a joy. Wasn't it a blessing? It was a. Chance Hicks Blessing. I don't even know what you missed. Brad McNutt I came back and I hear him concluding Psalm 22, and I'm like, okay, we'll see you. Dan Winkler How long was I gone exactly? And we say, has he ever arrived? Chance Hicks Yeah. Brad McNutt Yes. That too. Chance Hicks Oh my. Brad McNutt All right. Can do some reading. You tell me where you would like some breaks. Dan Winkler Well, let's look at it this way. Let's look at the first 21 verses. Chance just made this very astute observation that the the psalm kind of makes a break right there. In fact, in the middle of verse 21. So let's place verses one through the first part of verse 21 under the heading A Prayer of One in agony. I'm going to you're going to be reading words from one that is agonizing over circumstances in his life. So let's look at verses one and two. And in this prayer of one in agony, first we hear the words of someone that felt abandoned. Read verses one and two for us. Okay. Brad McNutt My God, my God, why have you forsaken me? Why are you so far from saving me? From the words of my groaning, oh my God, I cry by day, but you do not answer. And by night but I find no rest. Dan Winkler So twice he says, why, why? And then he implies that by saying, I'm praying and you're not even there. So I'm not the first to ask that question, why is this happening to me? I mean, I've asked that question. Have you all I know you have to have asked that question. We're not the first. David asked that question, and he asked it twice, directly and once implicitly. So he feels abandoned. Now, Brad, let's read verses three through six. And in this prayer of one in agony, I'm going to read from the one from a man that felt ashamed. Verses three through six. Brad McNutt Says, yet you are holy, enthroned on the. Praises of Israel. And you, our fathers trusted. They trusted, and you delivered them to you. They cried and were rescued in you they trusted and were not put to shame. But I am a worm, and not a man scorned by mankind and despised by the people. Dan Winkler Okay, so here you are. God. You're holy. And our fathers trusted you. And you delivered them. You rescued them because they trusted in you. And you came to their aid. But me. Why have you forsaken me? Me? I'm a worm, I am scorned, I am despised. Here's a man that feels absolutely ashamed, abandoned and ashamed. Now let's read verses seven through 11. And in reading verses seven through 11, the prayer of one in agony expresses feelings of someone that is alone. Verses 7 to 11. Okay. Brad McNutt All who see me mock me. They make mouths at me. They wag their heads. He trusted in the Lord. Let him deliver him. Let him rescue him, for he delights in him. Yet you are he who took me from the womb. You made me trust you. Made me trust you at my mother's breasts. On you was I cast from my birth and from my mother's womb. You have been my God. Be not far from me. For trouble is near and there is none to help. Dan Winkler So others are saying, well, let God come to his aid. Point implied is God hasn't come to his aid. God has forsaken him. He has. He's all alone. God's not with this man. And therefore he's saying, please don't be far from me so he feels alone. How many times have you felt absolutely alone? Nobody understands what I'm going through. Nobody can grasp the depth of my concern and agony. If you only knew. How many times have we thought things like that? So you know, I've been where, David. Is in this Psalm. I have felt abandoned, though I know I wasn't. I have felt ashamed, though I know I had no reason to be. I have felt alone, though I know I'm. I may be lonely, but I'm never alone. But I have felt that way. And David felt that way in this prayer of one in agony. Now let's read verses 12 through 21. Don't everybody go to sleep, because this is a little lengthy reading. So we're going to read verses 12 to 21, and we'll capsule this reading under the word afflicted in this prayer of one in agony. He's going to express feelings of one that is outright afflicted by life. Let's read this. Brad McNutt All right. I am poured out like water and all my bones are out of joint. Actually, let me back up. That's 14. 12. Many bulls encompass me. Strong bulls of Bashan surround me. They open wide, their mouths at me like a ravening and roaring lion. I am poured out like water, and all my bones are out of joint. My heart is like wax. It is melted within my breast. My strength is dried up like a pot shirt, and my tongue sticks to my jaws. You lay me in the dust of death, for dogs encompass me. And a company of evildoers encircles me. They have pierced my hands and feet. I count all my bones. They stare. They stare and gloat over me. They divide my garments among them. And for my clothing they cast lots. But you, O Lord, do not be far off. O you, my help! Come quickly to my aid. Deliver my soul from the sword, my precious life from the power of the dog. Save me from the mouth of the lion. Dan Winkler So in this reading, David looks in three different directions. First of all, he looks around and he talks about being totally surrounded by the bulls of Bashan. My enemies are surrounding me. Then he looks inside, and this is where he's very emphatic in his terminology and says, my bones are out of joint. My heart is melted within me, my strength is dried up, my tongue is glued to my jaws. So here, here is one that on the inside he just feels totally spent by the affairs of life. And then he looks around, he looks inside and he looks up and he's. He's still crying for help. Please. Oh, God, don't be far from me. Please, please, quickly, please quickly come to my aid. So, as we read verses one through the first part of verse 21, we're reading the prayer of one in agony, one who felt abandoned, ashamed, alone, and absolutely afflicted by the affairs of life. Now these words had to flow through the heart of our Lord when he quoted the first verse that began these words, My God, my God, why have you forsaken me? These had to be going through our Lord's mind and heart, and indeed he was abandoned by all those close in his life, and he was treated as one who was ashamed, as everybody present mocked him, the two malefactors crucified with him, everybody walking by. He had to have felt alone in that he was abandoned, and indeed he was afflicted. In some of the terminology you read here actually is almost messianic in its import. You're feels like you're standing in the shadows of the cross itself when you're reading about they divide my garments among them, and for my clothing they cast lots. Dan Winkler That actually happened, didn't it, to Jesus at Calvary. So here is the first half of the psalm. Is the prayer of one in agony. I'm going to take pause there a moment and let you all chime in and with y'all's great remarks that bless my life. Chance Hicks Any thoughts you. Dan Winkler Want to add? Chance Hicks Now there's a number of things through that section, as you were mentioning. You know, you feel like you're standing in the shadow of Calvary that are mentioned in that passage from like verse eight when they're shouting about, let him trust in the Lord. Let him see if the I mean, that's the same cry that the people are going to make when Jesus is on the cross. Matthew 2743. The piercing of his hands and his feet. Um, John chapter 20. When he appears to the disciples post-resurrection he's going to show them his hands. And then when Thomas is there, the next time, he's going to show Thomas his hands. And so there's just so many things here that are foreshadowing and pointing us toward Jesus and Calvary and the things that happen there. Brad McNutt I think the the thing that I've often wondered is something chance mentioned earlier, and that is about verse eight, the words that they're saying, I have wondered, these are religious leaders. These are people intimately familiar with the Psalms. I wonder if it ever dawned on them. I'm saying the same words I've read. Maybe I should be thinking about this whole thing differently. You know, like you're I think I know I've had one of those moments where I start to say something and those words sound eerily familiar, and it's like, wait a minute, wait a minute. I need to take a step back. That doesn't that doesn't line up. And I kind of wonder that they're so familiar with scripture, but yet. It doesn't seem to ever really dawn on them. Wait a minute. He just said Psalm 22. What I just said sounded like Psalm 22. Is there something going on in this situation that I should be thinking about differently? Uh, you kind of wonder, is Jesus extending an olive branch, saying. Think. Think. Chance Hicks Oh, yeah. Chance Hicks Mean. Mean. Obviously, the Psalms weren't divided in the way that we have them necessarily. So you wouldn't say Psalm 22, but if you want to draw someone's attention to this section of Scripture, the way to do that is the opening line. And so think maybe part of that's what's happening here. In essence, Jesus is saying, hey, hey, read and think through Psalm 22. And to do that, he is quoting the opening line of it to really draw their attention to, to consider the things that are happening there in light of what's written by David in this Psalm. Dan Winkler And think about the exclamation mark God gave to the whole event whenever the ground shook and the rocks exploded. And here they're thinking maybe there was a whole lot more to this than meets the eye. And and three days later they found out, though they though they denied it. Good. Three days later, he comes from the tomb. Let's go to the second half of the psalm, verse 21. The second part of. Hello. Y'all still there? Brad McNutt Yes, sir. We're here. Dan Winkler Okay. Am I still there? Brad McNutt Yes, sir. Chance Hicks You are. Dan Winkler Everybody on my screen just died. Hang on just a minute and I will have to get my. Here y'all are. I don't know why it decided to go to sleep. It's like. I mean, I put up with that for 50 years while preaching. I'd get up to start preaching and everybody would go to sleep. And now the screen is doing that. It kind of hurts my feelings. Brad McNutt Well, even the internet got tired of me. Chance Hicks Even the internet, man. Brad McNutt He just kicked me off. Chance Hicks He just kicked me off. Dan Winkler It kicked me off. And that ticked me off. Chance Hicks Yeah, exactly. Brad McNutt It's like of all times, man. Chance Hicks Of all times. So that's a different song? Yeah. Dan Winkler I would like to write that one. Chance Hicks Yeah. Oh, my. Dan Winkler Let's look at the second half of Psalm 22, verses 21, the second part of the verse, all the way to the end of the of the psalm. And we see a big shift. And I think that this is really important, Brad, chance to to kind of put our finger on the pulse of what Jesus might have been actually thinking. Of course, none of us can step inside the mind and heart of Jesus on this occasion. Um, but maybe we could put a finger on the pulse of what was going on in his mind when we consider the second half of Psalm 22. We know the Lord knew the first half of that, and we know that the Lord experienced some of these same feelings that David expressed in the first half of the psalm. Uh, but. Did Jesus mind just go blank when it came to the last half of Psalm 22? Chance Hicks Or did. Dan Winkler He not? Keep in mind the way the Psalm begins to close. We need to really take pause and consider not only how the Psalm unfolds in its first half, but how it begins to conclude in its second half. And it shifts dramatically in emphasis in the second half of the psalm. In the second half of the Psalm we read about. We read the praise of one who is assured of God's help. Now, the first 21 verses the prayer of one in agony. The next half the praise of one assured. Now let's let's read these particular verses. But Brad, first of all, I want to ask you to just kind of skip around here because the first thing that I want us to see is that indeed we are reading words of praise, and there are different words that are used for praise in the second half of this psalm. So read verses 22 and 23 for us, and let's listen for the words of worship in this, these two verses. Brad McNutt I will tell of your name to my brothers in the midst of the congregation. I will praise you. You who fear the Lord, praise him, all you offspring of Jacob, glorify him and stand in awe of him, all you offspring of Israel. Chance Hicks Now look at their praise. Dan Winkler Praise, glorify. Stand in awe of him. These are terms of worship. The psalmist is shifting from pleading with God for help to praising God for help. What a major shift in emphasis. Now read verses 25 and 26. Brad. Chance Hicks Okay. Brad McNutt From you comes my praise in the great congregation. My vows I will perform before those who fear him. The afflicted shall eat and be satisfied. Those who seek him shall praise the Lord. May your hearts live forever. Chance Hicks Okay. Dan Winkler Praise again. Verse 25. Praise again. Verse 26 praise the Lord. So again praise. I've read the word praise four times in just five verses thus far. Um, verse 27 and verse and verse 29. Read those for me. Brad McNutt Okay. All the ends of the earth shall remember and turn to the Lord, and all the families of the nation shall worship before you. All the prosperous of the earth eat and worship before him shall bow down all who go down to the dust, even the one who could not keep himself alive. Dan Winkler Okay, in these verses I have read the word worship, and then again worship. And then even more than that, bow before. And so I'm reading from the heart of someone that is. Praising God, worshiping God, standing in awe of God because of God's help and presence. Now, if we were to go back to verse 21 and through verse 31, we find three more emphases under this idea of the praise of one assures. First of all, there's this his praise, as we've just seen in all these words. Now look at his presence. Read verses 21, the second half through verse 26 for us, Brad. Now, as we read, just listen and hear the words of somebody that recognized the presence of God involved in his life. Let's read this. Brad McNutt You have rescued me from the horns of the wild oxen. I will tell of your name to my brothers. In the midst of the congregation. I will praise you. You who fear the Lord, praise him. All you offspring of Jacob, glorify him and stand in awe of him, all you offspring of Israel. For he has not despised or abhorred or abhorred the affliction of the afflicted. He has not hidden his face from him, but he has heard when he cried to him. From you comes my praise in the great congregation. My vows I will perform before those who fear him. The afflicted shall eat and be satisfied. Those who seek him shall praise the Lord. May your hearts live forever. Dan Winkler So you have rescued me. Verse 21. You do not despise and abhor the afflicted. Verse 24, you have heard verse 24. These are the words of someone that believes that God is involved and present in the affairs of his life. So we read of the praise that God is deserving. We read of the presence of God in this man's life. Now let's read verses 27 and 28 and hear the power of God expressed again. Power involved in the psalmist's life. Brad McNutt All the ends of the earth shall remember and turn to the Lord, and all the families of the nation shall worship before you. For kingship belongs to the Lord, and he rules over the nations. Chance Hicks He rules. Dan Winkler He rules over the nations. Now, these nations were probably the ones that the psalmist alluded to when he said back in verse 12, the bulls of Bashan surround me. He felt surrounded by his enemies. But now he tells us that God rules over all the nations. God is in control of even those that had selected to be David's enemy. He knew that he could entrust his enemies to God's care, and God would take care of his enemies. So you have the power of God manifesting itself in the care of David, the psalmist. So you have the praise of God, the presence of God, the power of God. And now, verses 29 to 31, listen for the provisions of God, God providing to this man who is praising God from a heart fully assured of God's involvement. Brad McNutt All the prosperous of the earth eat and worship before him shall bow down, shall bow all who go down to the dust, even the one who could not keep himself alive. Posterity shall serve him. It shall be told of the Lord to the congregation, to the coming generation. They shall come and proclaim his righteousness to a people yet unborn that he has done it. Chance Hicks Okay. Dan Winkler All the prosperous of the earth eat and worship. God is offering his provisions, and then even generations yet to come will step up. They will reflect on all of these affairs and they will say, look what God did. Wow. And so I look at the overall Psalm and to be sure, the first half of the psalm. Are words that constitute the prayer of one in agony. But the second half of the psalm constitute words of praise. The praise that comes from one fully assured of God involved in the affairs of his life. Now the Jews, in their instruction would have a little tool called Remez. And this is where something would be said that hinted at something that followed, or something that encompassed, in other words, just a little something would be said and many other concepts or thoughts would flow to that one thing that was said and that being true, could it possibly be that when Jesus quoted Psalm 22, verse one, the words of one that prayed in agony. Chance Hicks That Jesus. Dan Winkler Felt. Chance Hicks As one. Dan Winkler In agony he had to dying the death by execution that he did. But could it be at the same time the whole Psalm is running through his mind? And it's not just the prayer of one in agony, but it was the praise of one fully assured of God's involvement in his life that's running through Jesus mind. And Brad chants, I believe as we listen to Jesus in the remaining statements that he made from the cross, those dovetail with that idea more than someone who felt absolutely rejected by God. I believe Jesus is praying. Is is quoting Psalm 22 verse one, in reflection of all that the Psalm has to say. Yes, he felt like one in agony, but he could praise God as someone that was going to come, that was going to be involved in the affairs of the moment, and that he would be ultimately victorious as Jesus was. So I think it to be words of not one forsaken, but one who absolutely trusted in God's care. And the rest of his sayings from Calvary manifest that. So I kind of said a little bit, now I'm going to be quiet and let y'all enlighten me a lot more. Brad McNutt All right, let's take it. Chance Hicks Yeah. Chance Hicks Great. Yeah. Ready no, I think I agree with that. And you know, even in this second half, we talked about in the first half of the psalm where you kind of see you stand in the shadow of Calvary, but even in this, in this second half, as you're walking through it, are you're drawn to the descendants of Jacob in verse 23, to the Gentiles in verse 27. And then they're going to the, this that's done is going to be proclaim for generations to come. I mean, how is that also not standing in the shadow of Calvary? Right? Acts two it's going to go to the Jews, a proclamation of what God has done for them through Jesus. Acts ten. It's going to first go to the Gentiles with Cornelius, and then it's going to just continue to be preached. And now it's still heralded through the generations over and over, we're talking about and proclaiming what God has accomplished for humanity through Jesus and the cross. Brad McNutt I think that's obviously I'm in full agreement with with all that has been said, I think it might be helpful here. Let's let me take a step back and summarize the two positions that we mentioned at the beginning. So the position that we are taking here is not that Jesus was forsaken. And that really, um, is informed by the the other predominant position, a very predominant position is this. That is, Jesus is making a statement of declaration that God the Father has forsaken him, that God the Father has turned his back on him, that he has abandoned him on the cross. And the general thought process is God abandoned his son so that he would not abandon us. And so it that's the general thought process, and that God is separating himself from the son, the father separating himself from the son, so he wouldn't separate himself from us eternally. And so that is a pretty predominant thought, probably just in, in my just guess experience, probably the most popular of the thoughts that I have come across in interacting with people. Now, what we are saying is we don't think that is consistent with what is going on here. To do that, it would be, at least in my estimation. I won't speak for the others. I think it would be to ignore the context of the fact that this is a quotation, that this is connected to a very a much bigger context. And actually, when understood this way, as was mentioned earlier, fits well with the other statements that are made with Jesus from the cross. And so I think it's a very consistent view with all of the evidence around us, not just. So let me deviate for just a second here. Brad McNutt Some people, when they when they study scripture, they have a philosophical grid and they use that philosophical grid and press it on to the text of Scripture. Instead of simply taking the text for what it says and not being married to a philosophical grid. And so you have to read things in light of your philosophical grid. Well, it can't mean this because of this over here. Well, here's the problem that doesn't deal with the text in front of you. You have to deal with it. God communicated to us because he believed we could understand what was going on and what is being said. And so we have to interpret the text as it is given to us, not in this grand philosophical grid, but as it is revealed to us in each unit of Scripture. Now, certainly we want to be consistent, but you have to move from the particular. That is what the text says into the grand scheme. You can't reverse that order. So. The the question being asked, did he feel forsaken? I would say, I think what we're proposing is maybe a third option. Not that he necessarily felt forsaken, although he certainly might have. I mean, I don't I'm not an authority. I couldn't say he didn't feel that way, but I think based upon the interpretation of the text, that he might be pointing to something far greater and that he is his trust in God to deliver him, and that this was going to turn out. Not only this was going to turn out for the salvation of all men. And I mean, is that a fair summary? Everybody feel like, yeah. Dan Winkler Yeah. You know, the word, the word that Jesus used. Well, the word that is used in reference to Jesus comment in Mark, why have you forsaken me? The word forsaken there is that got the lipo. And if we were to break that down, there's a word picture. Of course the word means forsake, but the word picture is is beautiful lip. So to leave Qatar down egg ec in rather in that hardened form of the word in leave down in. And so Jesus is actually saying, My God, my God, why have you left me down in this? And the predominant view is that God left him alone. God had nothing to do with Jesus on that moment. God forsook Jesus on that moment. At that moment, because Jesus was burying the sins of mankind, he who knew no sin was made to be sin. We read, of course, in Second Corinthians chapter five. And so, because Jesus was made to be sin, God couldn't have anything to do with him. And God left him down in that. And I think that is foreign to the main emphasis of Psalm 22. It's taking a statement out of context and, as you say, filtering it through our philosophical grid to make it say, what is an easy interpretation, I might add. And. But the easy interpretation isn't always the correct one. So, and for years I believe this, Brad. And I guess that's why I want us to take pause and say, wait a minute here, because the older that I have become, the more I have come to think that Jesus wasn't saying this. As someone who is praying to God, why have you left me down in this mess? That's not what Jesus is saying here. Dan Winkler And he's not saying, why have you left me alone? Because. Is it because I've taken on the sin of mankind? I don't believe that's what Jesus is saying. Although he was made to be sin, I think he's saying. He's making the statement of one who is in agony. Hinting at the victory that he knew would be his because of God's constant care. Here's a question that needs to be asked and answered. If indeed the traditional concept is accurate, if indeed Jesus was forsaken, if God had nothing to do with Jesus on this occasion, if he was forsaken, if God broke fellowship with Jesus on this occasion, what did Jesus do to get back into fellowship with God? And there is no answer to that question, which tells me the concept itself. Is inaccurate and we need to revisit. Chance Hicks Yeah. Brad McNutt And I think so. Chance, why don't you walk? You had several other questions alongside the one that was just asked to think about on a, on a larger scale, based upon other texts. I mean, how do other texts speak into this? What are other questions specifically about the moment? Chance Hicks Yeah, I had some other questions just thinking through it. Like if if this is interpreted to mean God turns his back on Jesus at Calvary. Just exactly when does that begin in this process of crucifixion? And then when does it end? Because this isn't the only cry Jesus makes, as we've already mentioned, Jesus and it's and some of them are, you know, Jesus will speak to his mother and to a disciple, right? So in that statement, he's not addressing the father. But in some of the other statements from Calvary, Jesus is directly speaking to his father. Father, forgive them, for they know not what they do. Father, into your hands I commit my spirit. Is is God now looking at him again and and answering? And he just wasn't listening to him in that one moment. So it's just it's hard to be consistent if you're going to take that position to be able to say, well, it happened at this point, but now it's over. How long did it last? When did it start? When did it end? Um. And and the other question I had as I was thinking through this is why would God turn away from seeing the very plan he determined before the foundation of the world to its fulfillment? This is the the the predetermined. This is x2 23. This is Jesus slain before the foundation of the world. Um, first Peter 120. Why would God turn from seeing the plan he set in motion and in place from being accomplished? Dan Winkler You know, when God, uh, commanded Old Testament Israel to make all of those sacrifices for sin in Old Testament times, he accepted the sacrifice. He didn't forsake the sacrifice. He accepted the sacrifice. And when you read Malachi, he forsook their sacrifices because they were improper. But his point was, I have rejected your sacrifices. Instead of accepting them because they're not the proper sacrifices. He accepted the sacrifice for sin. He did not forsake the sacrifice of sin. And he is. He's accepting Jesus as the sacrifice for mankind. Sin. In the new King James Version of Isaiah 53, it tells us that God was pleased with Jesus as his suffering servant doing this, and it was the pleasure of God to see the suffering servant go through all of this. And of course, of all Old Testament Scripture, the Jews viewed Isaiah 53 as one of, if not the most messianic in its import. So God was pleased with Jesus sacrifice. He didn't forsake Jesus as the sacrifice. He was pleased with Jesus as the sacrifice. Something else has to be involved in the statement that Jesus made. My God, my God, why have you forsaken me? Something else had to be involved. Jesus is not expressing the prayer of one in agony, as much as he's hinting at the praise of one fully assured of God as the one he can trust in his state of agony and chance, you bore reference to his last statement. Father, into your hands I commend or commit my spirit. And that, of course, is the citation or quotation of another psalm. Psalm 31, verse five. I think it was William Barclay in his Little Commentary series that made the suggestion I thought was so precious. He suggested that Psalm 31, verse five, was the prayer that Jewish mothers would teach their little children to pray at night as their nighttime prayers instead of now I lay me down to sleep, I pray the Lord my soul to keep. Dan Winkler Jewish mothers would pray, teach their children to pray into your hands. I commit my spirit. And if indeed that is true, then the last words that Jesus ever spoke from Calvary after saying, it's accomplished. I've done all that I've been sent to do. It is finished. After saying that, he said he he prayed a prayer that his mama taught him to pray when he was a little boy, and it was a prayer of trusting in God's care. Now you think about, My God, why have you forsaken me? Those words were spoken chronologically, just not too long before he prayed into your hands. I commit my spirit. There weren't hours between those two statement statements. The why have you forsaken me? Was said, um, the ninth hour of the day. 3:00 in the afternoon right before Jesus dies. And so before he dies. I believe he's making the statement of David in Psalm 22, hinting at the way the Psalm concludes with great words of trust in God's presence. And then he can turn around and he can say. It is finished, father. Now I commit my soul to you because I've trusted in you all along. Think that's what's going on in my understanding of the statement? Chance Hicks Yeah. There's another statement of Jesus from John's account in John 1631 and 32 that I think is helpful here. Jesus is talking to his apostles about what is about to transpire, and he says to them in verse 32, the hour is coming has yes, has now come. You will be scattered, each to his own, and you'll leave me alone. Yet I am not alone, because the father is with me. And so Jesus, in approaching Calvary, is confident every bit that God is walking with him. And God will be present with him through every moment of what is ahead. Beautiful. He's here too. He's here to accomplish that will of God for which he's been sent. And he said, I, my father, are one, and we're walking through this moment together. Dan Winkler And, you know, in personal application, in the darkest hours of Jesus life. He refused to reject his trust in God. In the darkest moments of his life, Jesus held on to his faith in God and in personal application. We need to heed the words of Jesus in Mark 1122. Have faith in God. Or the imperatives? Not suggestions, but the imperatives of John 14 verse one. Let not your heart be troubled and imperative. You believe in God. Another imperative. Believe also in me. And so Jesus, as the this dark moment was coming said to his apostles. Now don't be troubled about this. I'm commanding you. Keep your faith in God and keep your faith in me. And Jesus manifested that very spirit. Chance Hicks At Calvary. Dan Winkler He kept his faith in God. And even these words of our current discussion express that when placed into their contextual flow. Psalm 22, the latter half of the psalm. What a thought. I can trust in God and echo the words of Isaiah, of Hebrews 13, where he says, I will in no wise desert you literally. Neither will I in any wise forsake you. And that word forsake is the Greek word we find back here in our passage of interest. Why have you forsaken me? Jesus tells us, use this word down in, left, down in. But we are told in Hebrews 13, God's promising us, I'm never going to desert you. Chance Hicks And I am. Dan Winkler Never going to leave you down in the affairs of life by yourself. You can trust in me to be present in your life. He was with Jesus in the darkest moments of his. He will be with me as well and that lifts me up. Speaker F And I think. Chance Hicks It's consistent with what you see with God throughout his dealings with his servants through the Old Testament. Right. He's sending a servant to accomplish or do a difficult task. Moses, I'm sending you to deliver Israel from Egypt. But I'm going to be with you, Joshua. Now you're taking over and you're leading these this nation, and you're going to conquer this land. But don't worry. I'm going to be with you. And now he's sending his servant Jesus to accomplish the ultimate plan that he set in place. And he's saying to Jesus, be strong and of good courage. I'm with you through every moment of this. As we're accomplishing the plan we set in motion. Dan Winkler And he's with me today. Absolutely. Just as well. Brad McNutt All right. Brad McNutt I think there's one other thing I hate to, because that was such a solid moment to end on. Uh, you're leaving this? Chance Hicks So here we go. Brad McNutt So I just want to make mention because someone who maybe holds the view that's probably more predominant with some people. Um, that person may be thinking, what about Habakkuk? What about Habakkuk? What about Habakkuk? Where God, you are a purer eyes than to see evil. Habakkuk one in verse 13. Well, what we mentioned on the front end of this podcast before we started recording is something would encourage us always to keep in mind what is the context? Habakkuk is wrestling with God. Habakkuk is not is not always theologically correct in his observations. Okay. And so Habakkuk is talking about an invading Babylonian army to punish his people Israel. How can you use a nation more wicked than the wickedness of Judah to punish Judah? How does that square with you, God? He's not talking about, and I think chance pointed out a great point earlier. You're a purer eyes than to see evil. Well, God sees evil every day. I mean, if you if you take it literally, God sees evil every day. And so to take Habakkuk's text and then to take Second Corinthians five, and then to try and push those verses onto Matthew 27 and Mark 15, that that is very troublesome. Um, exegesis in my judgment. And I think it misses the spirit of what is going on in the context, not to mention all of the other things that we have said. I think I think we certainly could have just executed Psalm 22 and said, basically, case closed. It's it's pretty clear from that. But I did want to kind of tie up that loose end, because I know that is a text is often cited, but it's not saying what in my judgment, it is not saying at all what some people are are affirming that it does say. Brad McNutt And so I think that's something to keep in mind. Okay. Before we close this thing down or, you know, drive it deeper into the ditch however you want to go with this, um, anything that anybody would like to add? Chance Hicks No, I mean, we should we should be found, just like at the end of Psalm 22, in light of what Jesus has accomplished for us at Calvary, as those who praise, worship stand in awe, fear, adore, that that should be our heart's position toward God. Dan Winkler Yes, and also at that. On that same note, when our lives come to an end, hopefully each of us can reflect back on life and can say, as Jesus said, it is finished. In other words, I have accomplished what you have given me to accomplish. I employed the skill sets that you entrusted me with to bring you glory. It is finished and we can echo the words of of Paul, Paul, I have fought the good fight, finished the course, kept the faith. If we can come to the end of our lives with sentiments like that, then we can step forward, knowing that with the grace of God we lived a life well spent. Brad McNutt Absolutely. So we're going to close this thing down. We want to remind you that episodes are released each Friday. Also, we've done back to back episodes of listener questions. Next week we're going to move into a different realm. But we do want to remind you that if you do have questions, you can email us male at the network-tv. And people are grinning on the screen because we had a Jeff Foxworthy joke off screen that makes this really interesting, but we'll just we'll leave it there anyway. Male at the light Network-tv we would love to hear from you. We are always. We are people who. Have had questions about the Bible and people who still have questions about the Bible. And we are very interested in helping people the way that we have been helped. Um, as far as answering biblical questions, and we're thankful that you care about the Bible and that you want to understand it, and that you are asking and seeking advice and help and interpretation. And so we are always going to welcome your questions and we will get to them. May not always get to them at the point in which we would like to, but we are always going to address them. And so keep sending them in and we will be here. So. That's it from us for preachers minus one today. Minus. And you're wondering. And now you're starting to see why Robert Hatfield is so essential to this whole thing. Okay. Uh, so, uh, until next episode, or maybe there won't ever be another one, I don't know. Until then. Yeah. Robert says stay cool. I'm gonna stay. Stay fresh. Dan Winkler Thank you all for inviting me to be part of everything. Chance Hicks And enjoy being with you guys. Dan Winkler Love you guys. Brad McNutt